Episode Transcript: Pamela (Pam) Smith

Cold Open

 Mara

Yeah, I just had a conversation about hanging chads and butterfly ballots yesterday, which is now a thing of the past, but that's a great example. That's a great example of, you know, citizens and of course campaigns essentially being shorted by a technological, maybe we would call it bureaucratic error. The ballot design wasn't great.

 Usability is a thing. Oh my gosh, usability 100%. I know my students are always like, why are we doing this like whole week on ballot design? And like, well, let me tell you a story that you have no memory of because you weren't alive, but there is a very important story behind it. And I mean, there's a lot of stories like that.

 Pam

I mean, and then I love those stories because they help people understand, you know, both the fragility but also the resilience when you figure out, like, how do you overcome those kinds of problems.

Introduction

Hello, hello, hello! Welcome to “What Voting Means to Me,” or welcome back if this is not your first rodeo. I am your host, Mara Suttmann-Lea.

 To start this week’s episode, I want to pose some questions for you to consider, dear listener. You might pause the recording if you are so inclined and reflect on the following, even jotting down a few notes. If you do so, I’d love to hear from you (for ways to participate, please go to whatvotingmeanspod.com/participate, or offer comments on our Instagram, Threads, or X platforms.

 What does the absence of democracy feel like? Or a mere masquerade of democracy?

What is it like to participate in governance in emerging democracies? And most importantly, how do we find hope, nurture hope, and maintain hope in the face of democratic decline?

 If you find yourself without clearly defined answers to these questions, as I often have, there is, I think, a little nugget of wisdom tucked in there amidst the confusion, insight that might help us arrive at a deeper understanding of what voting—and democracy, really means.

 In this episode, we get insight on these questions and gentle perspective from Pam Smith, an election security and administration expert, and the president and CEO of Verified Voting, an organization whose mission is to strengthen democracy for all voters by promoting responsible use of technology in elections.

 Pam shares shocking observations for many, not everyone, but for many, from her time as an election observer in Latin America, and offers reflections on the shortcomings and challenges of realizing democracy in the United States. Her story highlights the non-ignorable truth that democracy is indeed not a state, but an act, and that each generation has an obligation to preserving and building the community that is at the heart of that act.

 “To vote is to be a part of something bigger than yourself,” Pam tells us.

“To vote is to be a part of something bigger than yourself.”

 Please enjoy Pam Smith.

Episode

Mara

Welcome to What Voting Means to Me. So excited to have you on this morning and we'll just go ahead and get started with that first question that I ask all of my guests, which is, tell me your earliest memory of living in a democracy. However you would like to interpret that question.

Pam

You know, my mother was an immigrant. OK. And she held dual citizenship for a time. But she also lived through a war. She was from England. She saw firsthand that a democratic form of government can be at risk.

And so it was sort of an undercurrent, right? And we, when I was little, we moved from the Chicago area to Canada and we lived there for five years and then we came back. And I remember going to a polling place with my mom, probably at my elementary school. And I think what I thought about was less the process and sort of practice of democracy in the sense of, oh, look, we can vote. But...we traveled some when I was a kid and I had this consciousness early on that countries are different and do things in different ways and that stuck with me. And her consistency in going to vote when there was an opportunity was notable to me.

You know, many years later I watched people in a Central American country voting with a complete lack of secrecy, with ballots going into a clear boxes, guys in military uniforms in the polling place carrying Uzis. How could this even be voting? Right? It was so profoundly different and wrong feeling to me.

So I grew up aware that elections and voting were a big deal. And also it was Chicago, and we were kind of infamous. It piqued my interest even before I was of an age to be able to vote. And I connected the fact that the guy who's talking on the news, this congressperson, with the fact he had been elected, he had been chosen by vote. And that was so interesting to me, that that was something we could do.

Chicago was kind of known for, you know, the upheaval of the convention in the 60s for dead people voting allegedly, for machine politics, which was both a negative term, you know, but also a reliable turnout mechanism all at the same time. And you know, getting registered was easy to do for me. I had a sense though that it wasn't easy for everyone.

After that, you know, I became an election observer going to Nicaragua in 1990 when post-revolution, they had this round of democratic elections. There were many parties participating. It was a really interesting process. And I think a number of things stuck with me that I think about today.

So we went to meeting after meeting with representatives of all the candidate parties and there were a ton of them. There were lots of them and some of them formed a coalition. And just being able to observe everything on election day.

There was an instance where some people came into the polling place and went up to where the poll workers were seated and handed them a paper bag and it had money in it. And people were like: “What the heck?” It was their lunch money, actually. They all got a stipend to buy their food. So not everything's controversial. But we got to see all that and ask questions.

And I think most notably was the peaceful transfer of power afterward. And the neighborhood where I was staying when I was there to do this observing was a mix of Sandinista supporters, the winning UNO coalition party, and they each had slogans to remind voters how to support. Usually, it was correlated to their numbered position on the ballot for their party. The ballot was just a row of logos with the number associated with your party's logo. You just chose the party and that was it. After they reported all the totals, there was this sort of vigil, like a march through the neighborhood. And the people who had voted for the winning candidate, the UNO Party's candidate, were holding up their index fingers like a one, right? And as the Sandinista supporters walked by, they held up their hands with five fingers, like a five, because it was their position on the ballot.

But it was just friendly joshing. You know, there were no hostilities. It was just neighbors accepting how their neighbors had chosen. And I found it really moving.

Today, sometimes I feel like maybe I imagined that, but no, it really happened.

Mara

Cause it's hard to imagine something like that happening in the context of what we're navigating in our world of elections right now, I think at least for the highly sized, polarized races that we're embedded in at this moment in American history. I am struck by how what you observed in Latin America, it sounds so much like 19th century party politics in the United States. The no secret ballot, some intimidation at the polls, threats of violence. And it's really helpful to have that international perspective as well, because I've yet to be able to speak with someone other than my colleague, Lia Merivaki, who I'm sure you're familiar with her work, about their experiences either voting internationally or observing elections outside of the United States.

I do want to circle back to something that you said about registration, because you had said it was very easy for you, you have a registration card, you're very proud of it. But then you had mentioned that you think that maybe it wasn't so easy for everyone, and I just would love to know a little bit more about what you observed or experienced or what led you to that perspective.

Pam

Yeah, I think it wasn't anything really overt so much as it was, you know, you're at work with folks from different neighborhoods and, you know, talking about that was easy and, you know, maybe getting a raised eyebrow from someone who, you know, maybe it wasn't so easy for them. Or, you know, just it was more intimation at that point in time than it was kind of a broad consciousness of like what it's actually like for people. And then, of course, you know, learning more about voting rights and civil rights and, you know, drives for registration, Southern states, you know, all of that kind of stuff. There were people I knew who had gone to do that.

But in the beginning, you know, when I first registered, I don't think I had a real sense of, you know, what that might be like. It was pretty easy for me to gather any, you know, information I needed to register.

Mara

Yeah, yeah. And certainly that was a moment, if I am placing that in history in my mind correctly where...folks were navigating, particularly black Americans, were navigating significant shifts in the registration system, the opening up of the registration system. And in and of itself, that new system is going to bring about difficulties, challenges with learning a new system, but also the vestiges of why the old system was there in place in the first place.

So you had mentioned your experiences observing elections in Nicaragua, and I want know more about how you got into that.

Pam

Before I do that though, let me just say something about that if I can.

Mara

Oh sure, yeah.

Pam

The thing about registration, I think one of the things that I...learn through experience of working in elections over time and learn this from a friend of mine who used to work at the registrar voters in Los Angeles County. And you know, he's from Mexican-American community and he, one of the things that I was conscious of was like I said, going with my mom, right?

There was a family history of voting. My dad grew up in the Chicago area my mom was an immigrant. But my friend was talking about activism and how he got involved in elections. And he was a community organizer who you know, wanted to change a policy that was going to affect residents of a certain area in LA. And they all went and testified as to how this was going to upend their lives. And at the end of really moving testimony, they went ahead and voted it through anyway. And he was appalled. And he went up and talked to the chair of the committee who had made the determination. And he said, how could you sit there and listen to all this testimony and then still vote that way?

And he said he never missed an election after that and got very involved in elections and registering people and you know participation because you know yeah it can impact you but if you don't have a say that won't matter as much as when people do have a say. And there's a difference between having a family history of people who don't or maybe can't register to vote and there's not a process of going to the polling place with your mom or your dad as a kid and be having that in bed in your mind as a thing that we do. That's different and I think that's a reason why it's less easy for some too.

Mara

Yeah and the other that story is sobering and powerful because it also speaks to the power of local elections. But yes I would love to hear more about your work as an election observer and you know, feel free to talk about any other aspects of your own democracy trajectory as well.

Pam

Well, I think what was one reason why I ended up going that that trip to Nicaragua was partly organized by advocates that I knew in my Chicago community and was friends with but also like the Carter Center, which did a lot of international observing, kind of generated those kinds of opportunities. So there was collaboration there and somebody said, hey, you want to go? We're going to go observe the election. I'm like, heck yeah. Plus I had learned Spanish. I had spent some time in Mexico and I was fluent. And where that came in useful is once we were there and we were going and hearing from all these different parties and representatives. I was literally doing real time interpretation for the other people.

Because I because I could. Yeah. So that became you know kind of part of it was I think helpful and relevant that I was they spoke the language and could participate in that way. It was a very rewarding experience. I think it's always valuable.

I mentioned we traveled a lot when I was a kid. And I think it's just so important to...your life experience to see that not everything is the way it is in your hometown. Whether it's better or worse, whether it's, you know, a different language, whether it's, you know, different jokes are funny, people eat different food. Sure. It doesn't matter. It's just that it's not all this little microcosm that you find yourself in. And I think that helps expand how you think about things. You know, is it like this everywhere? Does this work the way I think? It works or is it different and those kinds of experiences. I think, you know, that helped me stay interested in the process, even though it was some years before elections would become, let's say, a fuller part of my life.

And voting in elections are kind of a reflection of how life is in some ways. Sometimes it's blatantly unfair. Sometimes it's easy and smooth. Sometimes it's complicated, things go wrong. Sometimes there's risk involved. You know, nothing should ever look like that pulling place with the guys in fatigues carrying the Uzis...and voting there was required. You had to carry an internal passport that noted if you had voted and you hadn't, you were in trouble. And you know, the word intimidation is much too mild for what was going on there. Yeah. You think voting should feel like you're part of something that's bigger than you are, larger than yourself. And it's an opportunity to think about what are the consequences of making choices because they are consequential.

And you know, not voting is a consequential choice too. Absolutely. And so I always encourage people to engage even if they don't feel like they know all the players or all the candidates, all the contest, you know, stick your toe in the water. Yeah. Find one contest that means something to you, even if it's dog catcher.

But that's just part of it. It's really visceral. You know, it impacts our lives. And it's all the things at the same time. You know, it's something to refine and improve and check and test in our work in elections. But it's also something almost magical, where out of all these many voices, all trying to be heard, comes a decision, a choice, you know, out of many one, right? That is what, certainly that's what keeps me engaged forever.

Mara

Yes. Yeah. It's so, it's so amazing. It's, you know, it's so amazing how it works and how it happens each time. You're speaking to my very, the essence of why I love voting. I love the idea of democracy. It is magical. I remember the first time I was observing, doing polling place observations for the League of Women Voters in Chicago. And it was also part of my research. And I was just thinking how frigging cool it was to watch. And to watch the, I was working with poll workers and observing them and just to watch them do what they do. It’s special, and that idea that it's a singular act but you're also a part of something bigger is. That's it. That's it right there. Oh my goodness. You're watching something going on at close range, with fine detail and simultaneously that same thing is happening all over the city, all over the state, even all over the country. Yeah. And that is just amazing. It really is. It really is. And it's a sentiment that, it's been hard to tap into that sentiment in our current environments.

I think I would like to ask you to reflect a little bit on where we find ourselves and feel free to bring in some of the work that you're presently doing, however it feels right to you, obviously we are in a moment of, it's an inflection point. It's a remarkable set of challenges that election officials are facing, that folks who work in the democracy space are facing, but that folks who also just live here in American democracy are facing. And I would love to hear both sort of what you see as the most pressing challenge or set of challenges, but also of course where you have optimism.

Pam

What worries me is people not feeling like they understand what they need to understand in order to participate or in order to have confidence in an election, whether they did or didn't go to vote in it. There's a lot of confusion. Some of that is driven by messaging, by disinformation by many factors, and it leaves people wondering “gosh everyone's talking about you know can't trust this” or uh and they just don't know because you know civics classes are rare these days in school. And I think it's normal for people to not know. There's so many things we have to know and do and be involved in. And most of it feels like it takes priority every day except perhaps one, you know, big day in a year.

And so it's not part of the ebb and flow of our everyday lives, but the trust questions are and the divisions are and the confusion can be. And I think election officials are very busy people on a very unforgiving schedule and always under-resourced and now with a bright spotlight on them all the time. And I feel like it's a time when it's incumbent on all of us to be able to provide information and share information and point people to right information so that they can understand it a little better.

And...You know, there's a guy who does really outstanding research, who I know you know well, Charles Stewart. And he has talked to voters about, you know, in polling about what kinds of things would increase their trust in elections if, you know, those were in place. And, you know, he's asking them questions without sort of saying, this exists, do you like it? But rather, what if, right? Yep. And when he talked about things like, you know, paper ballots and post-election audits to check the outcome. People are like, that's a really good idea. We should be doing that.

And they're responding from a place where they've been doing that for 10, 15, 20 years. They're right. You know, not every place has been doing all of that or has had that, but many have. Yeah. It's something that, you know, we're coming up on our 20th year at verified voting.

Mara

Congratulations, by the way. Congratulations. That is no small thing. Sorry, continue.

Pam

Our earliest work was really all about, you know, let's have a system that is verified by vote that they can cast an effective ballot, right? They can cast it, they can check it before they cast it, know that it captured their intent and their choice. And then there's a way to confirm that that was correctly captured by whatever counting system you're using. And you can prove it to the public, you can prove it to the loser that they lost, you can prove it to everybody. And that's what we work towards.

And, you know, there's been an enormous amount success, obviously not us alone. Many worked towards that. But, so there's evidence now when elections are sound, there's evidence that you can point to that stands up in court, you know, and elections are sound. And I think what where the gap is, is people's understanding about that. We, I don't think you could have told us 20 years ago that we would do this work and, you know, got these things in place across the country and then have people say, but there needs to be a way to change that. And you're like, Ah, there is! I have good news! There is. And maybe that's the optimism. There is good news. That evidence stands, right?

You know, it kind of made me cringe a little bit that a lot of people would use the phrase, and you know, they're not wrong, but a lot of people would use the phrase, um...”there's no evidence of widespread voting fraud” or whatever. And in talking about, say, a recent election, and I like flip that on its side. Let's talk about there is evidence that the election was sound. And every test has demonstrated that that's the case. But I think what's most important for people to know there are those tests, there is evidence, there is a way to check and that's what exists now and we're very fortunate to have that exist. Now it's really about kind of the messaging.

The gap between what is actually in place and how voters understand it. And like I said, election officials are really overworked so it isn't all on them. And around the time that they're doing that very important process of a post-election audit, you know, they're just, this is sort of at the tail end of a very busy season for them. And they're deep in the thick of it. And it's really hard to be out there sort of broadcasting what this means to the public. I have deeply rooted admiration for those who dedicate themselves to, you know, carrying out this foundational practice of democracy.

And I think, you know, overall thinking about what voting means,

in security, right? And I think the concept that someone fails to win an election because they didn't move enough hearts and minds with their positions and their policies, well, they know what they have to do next, right? If they want to run again. But if something went wrong with the technology leading to a questionable outcome or something like that. You know, for all of us, it's like a gut punch. All of us are like, that's not right.. And all of our work has been based on “it should work and what needs to be in place to make sure that outcome is reliable.” So even if we don't love it, we can legitimately rely on it.

And so technology should help make sure that voters can vote, not be hindered in the process, the technology they use for registration, whether it's what they use to check in to a polling place on election day, the electronic poll book, if that's what they're using, it should work. And if it doesn't, there should be some sort of plan B, maybe a plan C that's a reliable backup so that they can in fact vote. And then once they get to whatever the technology is, whether they're manually marking a ballot, using a ballot marking device, some other equipment and it's being scanned to be counted that should all work too and there are ways to check to make sure it worked correctly.

And I think all of that is really about that process of making sure that technology serves rather than hindering. I think through history there are these occasions and a lot of people look at something like audits as a standard practice and say well every time we do the audit it's right and you know we still have to do it you know.

Mara

Yes, yes, yes, please, please, please keep doing them.

Pam

And I think people want to now because they've seen like this is this is the tool. This is the tool to prove that that it was correct. 

Mara

Well, you did a wonderful job of transitioning us into that sort of big picture podcast question, what does voting mean? You were talking about it, of course, within the context of the work that you do, and you also offered such beautiful sentiments earlier on in our discussion. And I do wanna ask you though formally, if there's anything else that you'd like to add about what voting means to you before we wrap up.

Pam

I think it really means the chance to be heard. It doesn't matter if you're an introvert or an extrovert. It doesn't matter if you're super knowledgeable about everything in politics or have just no understanding of where all that comes from and what it means. It's your chance, it's your voice. And your voice gets to combine with a lot of other voices to come to a decision.

What I tell people, especially if they're concerned about election technology or something, which like I say, less need for that now than in the past, but I tell people, look, the one way to be sure your vote won't count is not to show up. It's your chance. And there are other ways in which we share our opinions and raise our voices in democracy, right? But this one, we all get to do it together. So take part in the magic. And yeah, sometimes it's going to be hard and you might have to wait in a long line and you shouldn't have to, but do it anyway if you can. Yeah. Yeah.

Mara

Oh, take part in the magic. That's such a great note to leave, to leave us, to leave our listeners with. Well, thank you, Pam. Thank you so much. This has been such a delight.

I really appreciate you taking the time. Take good care. Thank you. Thanks for doing this. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.