Episode Transcript: Thessalia Merivaki

Mara

Hello dear friends, welcome back to What Voting Means to Me. I am your host, Mara Suttmann-Lea.

On today’s episode, we hear from Thessalia (Lia) Merivaki, an associate professor of political science at Mississippi State University.

As will become quickly apparent in the episode, Lia and I are very close friends. We had the good fortune of being connected over Twitter back when it was Twitter through “Women Also Know Stuff,” an organization dedicated to promoting the work of women in political science. The organization thought we might have some research interests in common—(spoiler alert, we did, and much more!) and now nearly 5 years later we do work on voter education that matters so very, very much to us both. In the episode notes, I’ll link to some of our work.

Reflecting on my conversation and friendship with Lia in the context of the podcast’s theme for 2024—community—I am moved by the community Lia and I have made with one another as colleagues, co-authors, and dear friends. I am also reminded of the incredible community of scholars we work with in Election Sciences who not only support our work, but share our deep commitment to conducting research that has practical, positive implications for the quality of American Democracy. We’re a really special bunch. So in many ways, this episode is a love note to Lia’s and my friendship, but it is also a love note to this very special community.

But enough about us! What about Lia? In this episode, Lia tells me about her experiences growing up in Greece, the voting experience she had there, and her transition to the United States for graduate school. Lia tells us how the complexity and nuances of election administration in the United States motivated her to pursue a Ph.D. We reminisce over the Internet bringing us together and the origins of our voter education story, which really began with Lia and a curious, frustrated student in her classroom.

For Lia, the act of voting is significant, monumental even. It is something, she tells us, “we need to celebrate. We need to support. And we need to make sure it is protected and a part of a structure that everybody trusts and wants to be a part of.”

We don’t yet have financial sponsors at “What Voting Means To Me,” but this is a reminder that this podcast is, quite literally, made possible by democracy.

Lia

Yeah. So good to see your face.

Mara

It is so good to see your face. Welcome to What Voting Means to Me. It's so good to see you, my friend. I have no problem being super overt about the fact that we are very dear friends. Welcome, welcome. I think we can just go ahead and get started with the first question that I ask all of my guests, which is what are some of your earliest memories of democracy? And you can interpret that in any way that you want.

Lia

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be able to do this with you and talk a little bit about this. So all my voting experiences are European. I'm a citizen of Greece and Europe. I have voted in Greek and EU parliament elections and I have observed US elections from the sidelines. My first experiences, all I remember is going to vote with my parents. Even as a kid voting is important in Greece. It's on a Sunday. So it's a part of the culture to go vote on a Sunday.

We have a long history of going to the polls because it's an opportunity to just get away from the big city and go and vote. So I would always go with my parents. So my earliest memories are me, you know, holding my mom or dad's hand and going to the booth with them as they would cast their paper ballot and I would see all these different party ballots being stacked. So I was observing democracy as a little kid. And then when I turned 18, that was, that was my opportunity to also cast a vote.

So it's something that is very important something that we would do as a family. And as a young adult, totally confirming the American politics theories, I would vote the way my parents did. And that significantly changed over time as I got more exposed to what it means to follow political parties and what they stand for and forming my own opinions. And now we have distinct differences in what where we stand with my parents and it makes for an interesting conversation. And thankfully I'm not there to have to deal with it. Last time I voted was 2019 when we visited Greece and it was the local government elections, so I was able to cast my votes.

Mara

So this is just an interesting quick follow-up question that we can get into. Does Greece offer the option for overseas voting?

Lia

No, and the answer is no. So the Greek government started experimenting with this reform, offering the opportunity for expats to vote, to go to the consulate and be able to cast their vote by mail, and they would be transferred to Greece for tabulation. But you can only do that if you have a bank account and you pay tax in Greece. So it's so unconstitutional. At the moment, there's nothing that we can do about it. So yeah, this is majorly problematic. There were evaluations and estimations about how many expats voted in June 2023 on the national elections and the estimates were high and I was like this is so incorrect.

Greece, before they started digitizing taxes and I don't pay taxes in Greece. I don't have a bank account. When I was 19 and then 21, 22, so I don't have a bank account and therefore I don't have the right to vote unless I am in Greece.

Mara

That just feels like a vestige of the property and tax requirements from the United States, you know, way...back in the day in the early years.

Wow. OK, so we can certainly get into some of the differences between Greek elections and American elections. OK, so yes, we have another observation in confirmation of the theory that parents shape our political participation and our vote choices. Not at all surprising. Did your parents talk to you about who they were voting for?

Lia

I don't know, philosophical conversations about politics or was it just, I'm going to the polling place with my parents and I'm watching this and it's intriguing. Yeah, so my father is very involved politically and, you know, political parties in Greece are not similar to the US. They're not distinct ideologically that much. So they were the center right party and the center left party. We have multi-party elections, but there used to be two dominant parties, center right and center left.

And there was not much discussion about what they stand for, really. Just, you know, that's who we vote for and that's what, you know, we are with them and we're going to vote for them. And I didn't really question that much, you know. So I regret that now. I'm not asking more questions, but, you know, I guess that's not very uncommon when you're younger and you just follow along.

So now we have much more conversations, and now we do. And politics are transforming in Greece as well. There are more center-right and extreme-right individuals who are running for government, and there are more salient issues. You know, gay marriage is more salient now, women's rights, and many more. So those are opportunities to talk a little bit more and scrutinize the parties than in the past.

Mara

This is also, I think, a story that I've heard from other folks where, unless you have a parent who, my dad for example, actively talked to me about politics and I voted the way that he voted. We had a split party household. But oftentimes that transmission is incidental, it seems, for the most part. And it's really, it sounds like there are differences between you and your parents currently, but it's really great that you at least feel like you could have conversations with them.

Lia

Yeah, and I will say that something that I think this is what made me so interested when I came to the US to study elections is that voting is not, if you're an able bodied person, like someone who doesn't have a disability, because now I can observe a lot of challenges in the voting process, I'm more aware, but it's definitely easier in the sense you don't have to register to vote. I turned 16, I went to get my ID that was free, and that ID stays with me for life and it's not tied to where I live. So, you know, we have registration for life.

So that was definitely something that when I came to the US and I started studying elections and the different rules, it was so mind boggling that people have to go through this process so that they can cast a vote. That's what really got me so interested in the process of registration and why it can be so complicated. You know, a citizen of the United States who has the right to vote, why this experience is so different depending on where they live.

And that's so, so, so different from the European experience, including the UK, because they have some similar processes, but not as diverse as in the United States.  

Mara

And that's a great lead-in to where I was hoping our conversation would go, which was to ask you about your initial impression. You said you arrived in the United States when you were 19.

Lia

Yeah, I visited here and there and then I came 2009 was my first, the first time I visited for, I came for grad school.

Mara

So first impressions of, certainly you offered some impressions of the system of democracy that we have here, but kind of, I guess I want to get a little bit into the mindset of, or to what your mindset was, or sort of what you were experiencing in that moment in time as you came to the United States to study elections and voting.

Lia

Yeah, I will go for a very eye-opening experience that I had. I was a student and we had a class about Florida politics and one issue at the time was the federal government was giving money to Florida to install a high-speed rail which is very standard in Europe you take the train and you go everywhere it's fast and that's it and it's convenient it's cheap and it's environmentally friendly, so you know I raised my hand and I said this makes so much sense it's such a good policy you can go places you can go from Orlando to transportation more convenient and it's better from the environment and it will create jobs.

The reaction was so diverse. There were so many who then I realized, you know, where you stand politically, that's where you stand, you know, on these issues. You know, we don't need a high-speed rail, we don't need to get money from the federal government and, you know, we don't need a handout and we can use our car. So that was the first experience that I had. I understood that there are distinct positions depending on the party you support and that, you know, my mind would not make sense because why on earth would you not support for public transportation.

And then I had the opportunity to observe a logic and accuracy testing when I was in grad school.

Mara

That's amazing. Yeah. I just wanna nerd out about this. Go ahead, go ahead.

Lia

It's really fun because I had not yet decided that's where I wanna go with my research, you know? And it was part of a project where we had activists from Sub-Saharan Africa and six Francophone countries that were visiting to talk about elections and election activism and reform and we went to the Alachua County Supervisors of Election Office and we watched the preparation of voting technology and we cast our vote. It was so fun and that's when I started thinking more about the process of voting, what happens when somebody checks in and they don't have an ID. And then more and more I started asking these questions to myself and becoming more and more interested in the procedural aspect of what we call in our research the mechanics of voting. So pieces here and there that got me way, way more interested than I used to be about the little bits and pieces in the administration process that can make a big difference when it comes to trying to cast a vote.

Mara

And I love that you have that, you know, it sounds like it was a buildup of multiple experiences, but I love that you have that moment in time that kind of marks that transition of seeing this logic and accuracy test. Okay, so for listeners who are not familiar, could you explain what a logic and accuracy test is and also why it is such a nerdy, cool thing to observe?

Lia

So if I was one, I would definitely describe it way more accurately. It is one of the safeguards of the election process. It happens before election day. It is a way for election officials, it is mandated that technology is checked, voting technology is checked before election day to ensure that it is secure, it runs properly. So it is a very important component in the process of voting in the preparation of towards election day to ensure that when voters go and use voting technology it will run smoothly, it will record, not count, it will record votes accurately. And of course, an important part because it is also often, or if not always, open to the public to observe. So it is considered one of the ways where voters can themselves look at the process and be confident that they themselves use the machine or any technology used, that it will record their vote and it will eventually count it as intended.

Mara

Always love a chance to plug all of the great work that election officials do and the laws that are in place to ensure that votes are counted as intended. And the name is pretty self-explanatory, a logic and accuracy test, but I think it's good for folks to know and understand that this is something that is available to them, and it is a really cool thing, at least from my perspective and your perspective, to observe. So that's wonderful that you were able to have that experience. So you had said that you went to University of Florida to do a masters. Would that inevitably go into transition into a PhD? Or is this a decision? This is actually a part of your life that I don't like know a whole lot about. So yeah, I just would love to know a little bit more about when you're like, okay, I want to get a doctorate in this and I want to do this research and teach and think about democracy.

Lia

Yeah, the plan was that I came straight from Brussels. I was interested in elections, I came across some campaigners from the US who were contracting with some folks that I was working with, and I got very interested in the process of campaigning. And that's what drove me to do my masters, because UF offers one of the most robust campaigning programs in the country. That's like the other program. I got more and more interested in research, and I was kind of encouraged to think about it.

It was one of the best decisions that I made. And I started thinking more about research and I had opportunities to be a research assistant, of course, but also a teaching assistant, which really opened a new avenue for me because I never considered myself to be a teacher and educator. So having an opportunity to TA for American government and then teach my own policy class and shape it, you know, more towards elections and the election process, that's something that helped me think myself more about being an educator and a researcher. And that's helping me more think about what I wanna do with my life as an academic and where I wanna go.

Mara

And for what it's worth, I've watched you teach and of course know your research ethics and interests very closely. And you are so well suited for this work. It is really special to be able to watch. So yeah, lots of love here for anyone who's listening between the two of us because we go, I'm not gonna say we go way back, I feel like we've, over the last four years, have built a lifetime of friendship and research and support and it's really special.

So, you've transitioned into a PhD program and you are researching and focusing on election administration and your book is on voter registration that is out there and should be used and taught by everyone in my opinion. One question, and again this is a question I think that I don't know if you and I have ever talked about this, what drove you to want to study American elections? Presumably there's comparative work, perhaps you could have done on democracy in Greece. I'm just sort of so curious what drove you to focus on this very complex, messy, beautiful electoral system that we have here in the United States?

Lia

Yeah, I mean, that's a fair question. And to truth be told, I was advised by one of my committee advisors that you should do comparative because maybe that's how you can get a job if you want to go back to Europe. But, you know, federalism, that's the answer. It's, you know, yeah, it's the United States. But as you know, every state runs elections in a different way.

My N is 50 plus one, right? So in that way, we always joke about well, the US should be considered a comparativist field because it is so diverse from one state to another. So I don't think I have yet space to expand beyond the US because there's so much still to learn and there's so many changes that are happening. Ideally, I would like to be able to study EU elections because they're so, so fascinating now. There's a lot of work to be done in the U.S. front. We're still scratching the surface, at least in our research with voter education and how election officials interact and connect with their voters. We are in a new chapter, so I think there's still a lot of way to go before they get all branching out.

Mara

And it's so interesting that you say federalism because for me, federalism, participation and variance across the states was kind of a turning point for me as well. And it's also now just sort of clicking about why we were so in sync from the moment that we met. It was a little two-page reflection paper that I wrote in my American politics, like just the general seminar that you do as a grad student. It was our week on political participation and we were grappling with theories of participation and I was like, “man, what if all of this just depends on what's happening at the state and local level?” And you know, like, obviously I got much more, I don't know, eloquent than that in my little response paper, but it led me to write a dissertation on early voting and on how campaigns respond to early voting. And yeah, so I completely agree that.

There is a lifetime of stuff to explore and consider, and we are just scratching the surface. I think it will be really fun to tell the story of our voter education research, which really began with you. So for folks who are listening, who probably aren't familiar, Lia and I do work on voter education, which essentially is trying to both collect information officials are communicating to their voters about the voting process, but also understand its impacts and understand the the role that these efforts might play in rebuilding trust in elections. So that's the 30,000 foot view. But I love the story about how you became interested in this and then you and I connected and the rest is history. So if you wouldn't mind telling that story, I think it's very special.

Lia

It is a great story because it starts with a class in the classroom. And it's a great opportunity to kind of show off a little bit and be proud of the work we do as educators. I was teaching a class on election policy, it's one of my favorite ones, my favorite ones to teach. And one of the the assignment was to identify a research topic on elections, particularly in Mississippi, a state that has this one of the most restrictive in terms of voting access. And one day a student of mine comes in, she wanted to study voter ID in Mississippi and she started to do her research and she came very frustrated in class and said I'm trying to find information about voting absentee and using an ID to request an absentee ballot, there's no information on the state election website. At the time it was severely underdeveloped for voter information. I tried to find information whether my local official has a website, they didn't. I was calling and they were telling me to call back later, that nobody's there to answer my call. And that was her question, how am I supposed to get informed about voting?

And I'm a political scientist you know, I want to vote. And that was kind of a light bulb moment. I said, you know what? You're so right. We have no idea how we get that information and how we should, this information should be available and accessible for those who want it. It should not be that hard. You should not have to overcome that threshold of interest, right? And that's a high bar to get access to information. And even if you know where to go and it's not there. So that's when we started thinking about, with that student.

So educating voters, what does that mean? What does that entail? What should voters know about? So, and that was a great moment because that's when we started thinking about looking at the state statues, but it was also an opportunity because that's when I came across your work, Mara. And I thought Mara sounds like a great person to talk about these things with because you were working on poll workers and information and of course, reform. So it was very good timing, right? The stars align for us to get together. So that's how I found you. And we had, I remember, you know, the, the, when we, when, where we, when, where I was when we spoke for the first time and we had a phone call about our research and said, yeah, let's, let's, let's see what, where we can go with this. And it started with a paper to understand how states defined, define and mandate voter education. And this little idea now has spread to four, five papers, two, three grants, and many more to come. So as the famous Charles Stewart said, we're just starting a new field of voter education.

Mara

Thank you for reminding me of that. So Charles Stewart from MIT is such an important colleague for both of us. And a mentor, I think, would be a good way of describing him. And he's been so supportive of our work over the years. This summer he had made the observation essentially saying, it's like you guys are building a new science, like you're building a new... and there's so much of that analysis has to be exploratory and it's really... I don't remember his exact words, but it takes a lot of hard, laborious effort to do what we're doing.

Yeah, I remember too, I was sitting in my office when you gave me a call and, you know, I say the rest is history, but the history is still being written. I think that for me, what really keeps me going amidst the inevitable rejections and things that we face as academics is knowing that the bigger picture of our work is not really about that. It's not about peer reviewed publications, which we get and, you know, they're necessary. But it is about making democracy as accessible as possible. And it just really drives me forward. I don't know. I don't know if you have similar feelings or want to articulate something else on that point. 

I'm thinking about all of the folks out there who might want to participate but then hit a roadblock or get frustrated or can't find information. It makes me simultaneously very angry and also kind of breaks my heart, and also I want to do whatever we can to remedy that as much as possible.

Lia

I feel the same way. And I do, you know, because we work with our students a lot and they are young voters, we do observe firsthand the challenges they face. And it really makes me very disappointed when I hear from some election officials, not the ones in our network, but some others, because there's definitely differences and those who are very active in the community and they share their practices with others. When they say, oh, voting is easy, I don't understand why college students are making such a big deal. Mississippi absentee is very easy. So why are they complaining? And it's clearly that some are way out of touch with what is happening or they have the preconception that young people are not interested in and therefore they're not worth getting the information to. That really makes me sad. And, um, um, which I'm trying to find ways to remedy that because you have to give them a chance, but it is a system, it is an ecosystem of the way we describe it. So all parts have to work together. Yeah. Um, all voters have the same rights and they should have the same opportunities to participate.

Mara

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think when you combine, again, the attitudes, those attitudes of some election officials, not any of the election officials in our network, but combine that with how overworked and under-resourced they are. It is a recipe for, I just don't have the, my office has so many tasks that they are required to engage in, and I really don't have the capacity to do that kind of work. And election officials need more funding and more support. Isn't that one of the most consistent findings from our, all of our work with election officials is that resources,

Lia

We do need more resources and I also think that, you know, if we are talking about, let's say, college student voters or other types of voters who have more unique needs and unique barriers and challenges to overcome, there are other actors in the network that need to do their part. There are so many... It should not... It should be, in my opinion, it should be part of an institution's mission to foster civic engagement and participation.

There should be a dedicated office whose job is to work with students and encourage participation. Of course, nonpartisan, that's what we do. We are advocating for nonpartisan voter education and participation. So there should be efforts from the voter community to contribute to an informed citizen rate. And some do it, many don't. And that's why that goes all the way back to us saying that there's still so much work to do to uncover all of these dynamics so that we know how to fix them. There is movement on the student voting front. You and I are part of the student voting network and, you know, hopefully some of the trends that we saw in 2022 will continue, will continue to be bolstered.

Mara

So I think that now is probably a good time to transition to the question that is also captured in the title of the podcast which is, what does voting mean to you? And again, this is a question that is completely open to interpretation. No wrong answer.

Lia

Yeah, so this is one of these questions where it seems so easy and less complicated. I mean, I don't think I will reinvent the wheel. Voting is important. You know, growing up in Greece, voting is something that we all do. There is some objection in the last years out of, you know, disappointment with the parties. I believe that. I don't believe in not voting. I believe that voting should be exercised.

It is a way to express your preferences. It is part of someone's civic identity to be a voter. And it does have consequences. Sometimes we don't think about it that way, or many don't think about it that way. One vote is not going to make a difference. We see so many consequential policies and events happening as a direct result of many voters' decision not to vote.

Voting rights are significant in the United States. I think it's such a unique system in the sense that you have so many, at least in most states, but unfortunately not all, there are opportunities for one to cast their vote. So not taking advantage of that, I think it's very unfortunate. Of course, we know there are several reasons why one doesn't vote. And one reason is it's a conscious decision not to participate in that in itself. There is research that says it is a political decision. And I'm not sure how I feel about that. I'm trying to understand that better, at least in the context of the United States. But I think the act of voting is, it's very, very significant and it is something that we need to celebrate. We need to support. And we need to make sure that it is protected and it is part of a structure that everybody trusts and wants to be part of.

Mara

That trust piece is key to process, and a system that people want to be a part of is so much of what's at the heart of the work that you and I are doing right now to understand what election officials are doing to rebuild trust in the democratic system. You and I think so much about the mechanics of voting and information that is available to voters about how to participate.

And the other piece of the puzzle that is, of course, really out of all of our control, those of us who are doing this work, is the options and the choices that are available for voters. That's one of the consistent things I hear when I talk to non-voters. I have yet to interview a non-voter. If you're out there, I would love to interview you. This is a judgment-free zone, so please, please, please, please join, because your perspective as a non-voter is valuable. But the non-voters that I do talk to, it's often a dissatisfaction with the choices.

As researchers we are limited in what we can do of course as members of our communities and the public there are different options that we have so I've been so excited to talk to you since I started this podcast I can't believe it has taken me this long taken us this long but you know I think we're a little busy with other things because I have such a deep reverence and respect for your commitment to democracy and to American democracy as someone who can't yet participate in this system. It speaks volumes to the integrity with which you do your work. I'm just so grateful that we have a chance to work together and that we've able to been able to finally have this conversation. So before we wrap up, is there anything I didn't ask that you would like to discuss or is there anything else that you would like to add?

Lia

Yeah, I mean, there's always something of course, we have, you know, we have endless time to talk. Something that I really want to highlight is that this is academia and you never stop learning, I guess is what I want to say. Yeah, that I have been learning so much about how to do research of course, but thinking about where I stand in the broader election system and where my work stands, how much more I still need to learn about voting and voting access. Something that I'm very grateful to have been a part of is an effort to improve voter access for voters with disabilities. And it's a unique challenge, this voters with disabilities experience. We study voters with disabilities, but I'm not a person with a disability and therefore I definitely cannot relate. And that's so, so important. We talk about voters, but many voters who are not like us, they have their distinct needs and experiences and we need to learn more about that so that we know how to better support one another.

So I have been learning so much about this community and the needs and how much more we need to do as a profession, as academics, because we have colleagues that are disabled and you know, COVID has maximized that, that is my mind, with how we better support each other and we are, we advocate for inclusion and diversity and empathy and we should practice what we preach. But in the voting world, there's so much more we need to learn because yeah, voting can be a mild inconvenience is not, should not be tolerated in our minds. We should be able to, we have the tools, we just have to listen more. Yes. Making these posts accessible for all voters who everybody is equal and they have the same rights.

So depending on their ability, we need to find ways to support and we need to be able to listen and make decisions that positively affect this experience for every, every voter, we know what they need and what they want.

Mara

Yes, yes. And I'm so glad that you brought this up because everything that you just said reminds me of something that feels like our implicit motto or motivation. And when we finally launch our Voter Education Center, which I'm manifesting, it's going to happen. Every person, no matter who they are, what their ability is, their background, has the right to know how to vote and to have access to easy access to that information and the right to vote. And that's the bottom line. And it really has become almost like a...I don't know, something that I chant in my brain as I'm doing this work. So as you said earlier, we are really just scratching the surface. I think about trans voters as well, a segment of the electorate that does not get a lot of attention in terms of their own accessibility and their own needs.

And I think so often, and this is a generalization that I perhaps need to be careful about making because this is not necessarily the case within our own election sciences community, but when...scholars are thinking about elections and campaigns and outcomes and understanding, you know, what we can do to bolster participation, we think about it from a strategic perspective of who's the biggest slice of the electorate, who's the biggest untapped resource for candidates, for campaigns, and obviously that's the way that political campaigns think. And strategically it makes sense that some political actors have to think that way, but as scholars of democracy and as people who value democracy, we have to adjust our thinking. And even within our own communities, we have to adjust our thinking in terms of what we are doing, like you said, to listen to the folks that have very specific needs in order to be able to exercise their voice at the ballot box.

So I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but...it's worth emphasizing. So I agree with you. And that's why it really grinds my gears when everything is spreading towards…. Yeah, there are errors. X number of votes have been incorrectly removed, but it's not enough to change the outcome of the election, you know, things like that. And it's not the turnout only. That's not only the thing that we should be focusing on. Even if one person loses the right to vote when they should not have, it's not OK. It's not acceptable sacrifice that just because in the grand scheme of things, yes, that comes to not change.

Lia

Yes. So I agree with that. Yeah, the emphasis on swing states and competitive districts and places like Mississippi, Mississippi as much as places like New York or Connecticut, get left behind when it comes to the concerns and problems that people are highlighting with voting systems.

Mara

I know we could talk about this all day. Thank you so, so, so, so much. Thank you so much. This was such a delight.

Lia

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to dig a little deeper.